THE WORLD'S TOP KINK COACH
Interview with ClÉo Dubois

By Annie Sprinkle and Captain Barb

When it comes to SM, few people are as experienced or erotically gifted as Ms. Cléo Dubois. Step into her San Francisco Bay dungeon, if you dare—it's the private 'classroom' of her infamous Academy of SM Arts. She will teach you and your play-partner(s) the finer points of bondage, discipline, body piercing, spanking, flagellation, erotic torments, and much more. If you don't dare enter her dungeon, don't despair. Now you can see her in action in the safety of your own home with her extraordinary new video, The Pain Game.

Cléo was born and bred in the sexy city of Paris. She migrated to California in the late 60's and worked as a belly dancer and fire-eater. Her adventurous spirit led her to explore the underworld of Dark Eros, where she found her ultimate calling. She then devoted many years to mastering the wide variety of skills needed to satisfy just about anyone's extreme kinky erotic fantasies.

CB: I'd like to know how you became involved in "SM Arts" and became a dominatrix?

Cléo: I would prefer you don't call me a dominatrix! I prefer that you to call me a Domina. I really don't like that word dominatrix and what it implies.

AS: Really? Why is that?

Cléo: I think that it calls forth the image of the "bitch" rather than the caring Mistress. and has too much of a sensational and commercial flavor.

AS: Let's just chat a bit about your history, about what got you interested in being a ‘Domina'.

Cléo: In the sixties I was pretty open erotically and sexually. In the abandonment of the early seventies I experimented with my sexuality. I was not partnered and played around a lot. By the end of the seventies I was getting tired of just fucking around and realized that there was a component that was missing for me. I got exposed to SM by going to a workshop at a now defunct bookstore called the Gorilla Grotto, where Mistress Kat-AKA Kat Sunlove gave a talk on female dominance and demonstrated whipping and dominant practices over her submissive male "mouse." Something clicked for me. That element of control and energy exchange was like a big light bulb going off in my head. I realized that sort of power was the missing element I had been looking for -- where I would be in charge, not just that cute girl on the bottom.

CB: Like a lot of the readers probably, I have NO experience with SM. I can't imagine being submissive and letting someone beat on me. Is SM play usually consensual?

Cléo:, I'm going to try and be patient. it is difficult for me to accept that many people still do not know that kinky games must be safe, sane and consensual. So we'll back up to where I was 20 years ago.

Kat Sunlove demonstrated SM in a way that was hot and sexy, playing power games, consensually between two adults. I immediately understood that those power games were not about abuse or putting a person down, or treating someone like they were truly no good. It has to do with fantasies that people have and if you talk about those fantasies with your lover, and your lover is willing to hear the fantasies and play with them, then you have a good chance of getting on the road of exploring kinky sex. Kat was very good at showing the consent and trust part. ‘mouse', the submissive, was very good at expressing that he liked the subservient role -- that he likes to please her. He will take whipping and spanking from her. He likes to be dominated sexually and for her to have her way with him. It was all about consent. That is what turned me on to the whole lifestyle.

AS: Kat Sunlove was a real pioneer. She taught the very first S/M workshops. She inspired me a lot too. I experimented with a lot of kinky stuff over the years but as you can see, Captain Barb here is a kink-virgin. In our relationship we're very vanilla.

CB: I just don't understand, what is it about pain that's a sexual turn on for people?

Cléo: Pain is only a relative term. It depends on circumstances.  I am just the same with pain as non-kinky people. If I stub my toes on the leg of the bed in the dark , I go ‘oh shit that hurts'. So it's not pain that we play with in BDSM. It's the giving and receiving of intense physical sensation. It's not like a sudden unexpected shock. A whipping, for instance, is ritualized. So if you are going to get a whipping it is slowly and sensually built up and crafted. For me the concept of pain doesn't really enter into BDSM per say. There are some people who are very intense masochists who crave very intense sensations. But a lot of people, even if they're not into SM, like a spanking because of the many nerves on the butt that can stimulated by building up a spanking from light to heavy with good rhythm. It feels very sexy. People who are into it are not into it for the pain. They're into it because the sensation is a turn on. The mind set of being naughty and deserving punishment can also be erotic.

CB: Are you trying to achieve orgasm through that intense sensation?

Cléo: Not necessarily. Often I Look at it as prolonged and intense foreplay. Actually we're not trying to achieve anything. We're exploring sensation with the entire body, not just the genitals. You're building eroticism with a combination of psychological and physical sensations through games and role-playing.

AS: Do you find that people have a lot of misconceptions about SM when they first get into it, and they make mistakes?

Cléo: The first step is to talk about what it is we are really doing and get some agreement and set up some boundaries. As a teacher of SM, during the negotiation I make sure that the submissive and I speak the same language.  For instance, if someone says they want to be punished, what they really mean is that they don't want to be punished. They want to be playing a game of punishment, because ultimately real punishment would be to not play with them at all! Do you know that at least twenty percent of adults have some experience with light bondage, like tying each other or pinning each other down during sex foreplay. More and more people are experimenting with some form BDSM than ever before.

CB: You live in San Francisco which it is a very progressive place sexually. But do you see BDSM play becoming very popular in other places?

Cléo: Definitely. There are BDSM associations and support organizations in most urban areas in the States now. I was just in France, and had the opportunity to show my first video ‘The Pain Game' in a film festival there. It is really about SM play, not so much about fantasy play, or fetish. It's about energy exchange in sado-masochism, which is something I'm really good at. There were people there from all over the world. The video was extremely well received by non-kinky people who could accept that power exchange and consensual role-playing are part of human sexuality. If we want to play with each other or our partners, there shouldn't be any laws forbidding it. Many adults agree that SM is okay as long as it's consensual, not done with children, and no one is getting hurt. It is not about hurting people.

CB: How is your video being received in this country?

Cléo: I have not started marketing it yet through distributors but it is available on my web site at cleodubois.com. It is doing very well on blowfish.com. Blowfish has given me an extremely positive review because the video has real feeling and emotion in the energy exchange between me and the people I am playing with.

AS: I'm certain that it's destined to become an SM classic. It's the best SM videos I've ever seen. Your sensitivity and expertise really shine through. Not only is it about erotic pain, but also about intensity, energy, emotions, connection and passion. It's very mature. And it's got such excellent production values that I can hardly believe it's your first production. I love the part with Creed where you put clothespins with feathers on her back and make her into a bird, and she flies.

AS: I'll bet you sometimes find yourself in the position of being a personal counselor with your clients

Cléo: Definitely! They often confide in me the intimate details of their lives, their frustrations and desires. A lot of couples want guidance on how to play bondage and SM games without damaging themselves or their partners physically, psychically or emotionally. I talk with them, so that boundaries are clear, and I show them techniques necessary to enjoy safe SM play. I find my work very rewarding.

AS: Yes, it's very important work. And so unique.

CB: Men can be quite dominant naturally. How do you deal with an extremely dominant male who might have a tendency to go too far?

Cléo: Before I do a session there is an intensive preliminary discussion so that both partners are sure which aspects of the fantasies they want to participate in . Both of them have to be into it. Whatever they decide to do must be negotiated. It's often the males who want to be submissive. That's actually more common than the other way around. The men come to a session with their partners and my role is to encourage their partner to be dominant. I love to see the smile on women's faces when they spank or whip their mate for the first time. Often people want to switch and try being both dominant and submissive. Another way we refer to it is ‘doer' and ‘receiver', or ‘controller' and ‘controllee'. If one partner doesn't want to participate in some aspect of a fantasy, I don't encourage that person to try, but rather to have them negotiate what is comfortable for both of them.

We also use safe words. If something is not working while we are playing, ...I think that's a great word… adult play… If the bottom feels that the Scene is not going well , he/she can call a safe word, which means, ‘it's going too fast. Stop, it's not working'. A good Top would then check in with their partner to see what's going on for them. A more sophisticated way we do it is to use the word ‘yellow' for ‘slow down' and ‘stop' for STOP ‘emergency'. The reason we use safe words is that during play, the bottoms may want to say ‘no don't do that' but what they really mean yes. The use of safe words makes it really clear when something is truly uncomfortable or limits are pushed too far.

AS: I can see why it is important to teach someone the finer points of being a dominant. Is there much you can teach a submissive as well?

Cléo: Yes, but it depends on the game you are playing. If you are playing slave and Master there is a lot of etiquette. Slaves maybe ordered to keep their heads down, answer questions politely and honestly, perform certain chores for their Mistress or Master, keep a diary that their trainer has access to, etc…etc.. For a submissive it is critical to be responsible for their own health, to have good communication skills so they give the Dominant the proper information about what's going on for them. One must be true to their own feelings and communicate them in an honest way. There are rituals that submissives might do, like rubbing the neck of the Dominant, kissing their feet, fixing them dinner. These rituals are about attending to someone, about providing service. The Dominant must decide what he/she wants from a submissive. The submissive must learn how it can be done gracefully. A submissive who is allowed to worship her Dominant must have the Dominant's pleasure in mind, not theirs.

AS: You are by nature a dominant person. Do you ever play the submissive role?

Cléo: Only in private and very selectively.

I am glad that you asked that question because a lot of men and women who are naturally dominant want to be taken down so they can relax out of their regular head space and just feel A submissive might say ‘take me to that place of surrender' while a Dominant/Switch often wants to be taken there but might put up some resistance while wishing to eventually give into surrender .

I like to start with playing fun games like the naughty girl who needs to be spanked and punished for being a brat. That's not quite the same as being submissive. I don't like being a play slave at all, but I like to be taken down for being naughty, uppity, or talking back. At the hands of the right partner I like to be taken out of my head and temporarily put my controlling personality asides. In these moments of surrender I find much freedom and erotic pleasure.

CB: Do you ever play the bratty little girl with your students?

Cléo: No, only with my partners.

AS: When a couple comes to you for SM lessons, do you mostly teach the Dom or the sub?

Cléo: At this stage in my life I'm very much into BDSM educational scenes with couples. I'm very good at teaching dominance because I pay attention to details as well as reading what's going on for the bottom. I also encourage those learning these skills to stay centered and savor the control they have over their submissive partners. Someone who is well trained as a Dominant will be able to train their submissive to be what they want them to be.. If they are good Tops, they will have respect for their submissive, develop the ability to train their submissive partners, and enjoy the dance that BDSM play is about.

It takes a lot more time to teach someone to do a whipping or good bondage than to kneel down and agree to be receptive and obedient. Being the dominant is NOT more important, but for me it's very appropriate to teach the dominant skills used in SM play.

CB: If I were playing the submissive role for the first time I would have no idea what was safe. The sound of the whip would be scary, and in my mind I might think that surely blood was being drawn.

Cléo: The dominant's role is to be in charge of the session and to know how to make the submissive feel safe. Do you know Barbara, there are times when fear can be a big turn on but only if the trust between the players is well established? In a case like you just described, I would have the Dominant show you the whip, tell you that he/she is going to whip you, ask you to breath and relax. I'd start out very slowly. Perhaps having the Dominant rub the whip on your front or back in a sensual fashion and have you kiss the whip. Then I'd have the Top start out very gently, softly whipping you. Slowly the intensity will be increased but only when I am assured that you are OK with it. I always share with the Top the skills needed to gain a sub's trust, so you would not think that you are bleeding when you are not.

CB: If people are interested in exploring Dark Eros, what would you suggest?

Cléo: I would recommend books like Different Loving, (Random House/Villiard 1996) and the new book I Love Someone Kinky, (Greenery Press). Or Sensual Sado-Masochism (Daedalus Publishing). There's also a lot of information available on the net. If people are interested in knowing more on SM arts or want to contact me, they should go to my site at Cléodubois.com.

AS: Do you think Dominas over 40 are better than those in their twenties and thirties?

Cléo: Most likely but not always. My sense is that young women in their 20's have youth on their side. More mature women have more wisdom , a larger sense of what eroticism is and more likely a better understanding of control and safety .

CB: Can a woman be a great Dom into her 50's, 60's, 70's…?

Cléo: Definitely in her 50s and yes why not 60s and 70s? I know a woman in the scene who is almost 70. She was one of my mentors. I see her at private parties having a lovely time . She told me that the energy exchange in erotic play charges her. She goes home with more vitality. A good role model for me! I also know very well a kinky man who is 70 and whose friends are mainly younger and into body modifications. He attributes his joy de vivre to his kinky play and keeping good company.

As for me, I am certainly not ready to sit on the porch in a rocking chair. I love the new energy that staying active in the Scene, making videos, teaching and playing brings into my life. And dancing some too. Tina Turner is an inspiration for me. Yes mature women are sexy! Thank you Annie and Barbara for giving me the chance to add my kinky grain of wisdom to the mix.

Published in "Over 40" magazine, March 2001 || © 2001 Cléo Dubois